Hey everyone. I'm your host, Sarah Russell, founder ofAlloy, the Marketing Agency alternative. Welcome to After Hours. After Hours isa podcast for business owners and marketing professionals who want to cut theBS and take control of their marketing, will crack open a cold one withindustry experts and dig deep into the best practices, pitfalls, and untoldsecrets of marketing. Today, after hours is your backstage, v i p pass to theworld of advertising and Brand building. So let's dive in.Today I'm really excited to have, uh, Katie Watts and LizMorales. Did I say that right, Liz? Yep. Did I pronounce that right? Um,joining us from TV v l, um, which is a print, uh, a commercial print studio outin, uh, treasure Valley. And, uh, we're really excited to have the two of youjoining us today to talk about Print is Not dead, print is Alive and well inmarketing. Uh, we've also got Don Gura, uh, joining us from Don Gura Design.Um, he's an art director. So, um, why don't you guys start off by giving us alittle bit of intro into who you are and where you're at and what you've beenup to. So Katie and Liz, do you guys wanna go first?Sure. Uh, treasure Valley Litho was opened in 1987 andjust last night I was thinking how we opened with a two color press<laugh>.Oh, wow.So if it was for color, we ran it through the press fourtimes.Oh my gosh. Anyway.That's amazing. So we're here in Boise, Idaho, servingthe, the Treasure Poly and, uh, we do commercial printing, mailing, digitalprinting, fulfillment, and we've stayed up with the technology, so, uh, we'restill having fun.Amazing. That's wild. Two color press. Wow. And then youjust grew from there. That's so cool.Right? Yeah. I, I came on about 20 years ago and Katie wasmy mentor and taught me everything I know. And, um, we just enjoyed it. It'sbeen family owned, um, the entire time, but two different families. And so itis a fun place to work and, um, a good family atmosphere.And what are your roles there? What, what do each of youdo specifically?Primarily sales. I also do a lot of RAM writing on themailing department side. Mm. And I do all the invoicing and estimating formailing. Okay. I'm a sales support too, because we have three othersalespeople. So, uh, I do a lot of sales support.Awesome. What about you, LizAnd I just do sales. She's our top dog. SheAwesome.So Liz sold a million and a half dollars worth of printinglast year.And so you guys are the experts. So when people want tostart talking about a print project, like you are the two to call up and startbouncing ideas off of and, and going through that. Awesome. That's very cool.Kind of more of our specialty is starting from the verybeginning of a project Yeah. So that we can, um, be helpful along the way sothat it ends up being a more successful finished product.I love that. I love that. And Katie, uh, is it true, Iheard a rumor that you were actually one of the original, uh, founders of, uh,T V L. Is that, is that true?It's true.Uh, so when IWas young,<laugh>, can you, can you tell us just a little bitabout, you know, you don't have to go into great detail, but just what, whatprompted that? What did that, how did that all come about?Um, my, my, my degree was actually in advertising design.Oh, okay.So, um, before I graduated, I worked at the Boise StatePrint Shop, and you just get printing in your blood. You know this?Yeah. Oh, I know that. Yes. Yes.So that's kind of how I started. And I've sold for adifferent company. And then one of the owners decided to open his own company.And so there were four of us, um, main founders, and then a handful of otheremployees. I think we started with about eight or nine employees.Amazing.And, um, just went on from there, but we made it throughthe recession and the pandemic, and we're really proud.Oh, yeah. That's so cool. That's amazing. Oh my gosh. Ijust love hearing those origin stories. They're, they're always so fun to hear.Um, so Don, I think that brings us to you. What, uh, what have you been up to?Can you tell us about who you are and, and what you're all about?Yeah, so, um, I'm an art director, as you mentionedearlier. Um, so I've, I've been in, I've been having, I've had my own companyfor about 25 years now, and I've gone in and out of being a freelancer anddoing this off to the side and working for a company full-time or an agency.And, um, I'm currently now full-time, uh, with Don Guru Graphic Design, but,um, congratulations. I came up in world Congratulations. Thank you,<laugh>. Um, I came up in the print world myself, uh, designing annualreports in Chicago. And, uh, this is back when, um, large budgets were set onthe printed annual report. And, uh, worked with a lot of different agencies andcompanies and big Fortune 100 companies. And, um, that's where I cut my teeth.But then obviously things changed and turned into more of a digital world and,and, and then kind of came together. So, um, so I've been kind of, uh,specializing mostly in, like, things that are branded. Uh, I love designing theoriginal brand from the beginning, including the logo. Um, but I also, um, Ienjoy the boilerplate stuff where you're just sort of keeping something going,uh, whether it's a look and feel or a a campaign message, and then sort of, um,take taking that through printed pieces, digital pieces, websites, um, andsometimes even three dimensional things.Yeah. Amazing. And how do you know, uh, Liz and Katie,maybe it's the audience with inquiring Minds Sure. Would like to know<laugh>?Yes. Oh, happy to tell. Um, yeah, so I've been in, I'vebeen in Boise now for almost 20 years, and, um, of course what you do when youarrive in a new places, you find your tribe, and that involves designers, um,people that are into your hobbies and, and of course printers. Uh, and it wasquickly, re quickly revealed, um, who the printers in town were. And, and, andof course, Katie and I found each other and through some common designerfriends, I think it was. And, um, and here we are today, um, friends andworking, um, working partners.I love that. And I, I heard another, uh, another littlebird told me that, um, there's often some wine deliveries, uh, from your, fromyour printer here. Is that true<laugh>? Oh, yeah. You know, yes. Now,Is this, is this a premium client service that you guysoffer at T V L? Or is this Absolutely <laugh>? I love it. I love it. Youknow,We're, we're in kind of a new wine country over here, sowe gotta support it.Oh, yeah. I love that. No, that's great. Well, I gottasay, you guys, I am so excited about this episode. Um, I come from a printbackground. Um, I started my career actually doing letter press design and fellin love with, um, you know, setting up, uh, for press and just everything thatgoes into the nuance of print. Um, and the history of print is just, it'samazing. Um, you know, as a designer background, like you said, Katie, it justprint gets in your blood. And that's so true. Um, as a designer, you just fallin love with like, the tactile feel of different paper stocks and the differentcodings that you can play with. And there's just limitless possibilities of howyou can bring your creative ideas to life with print. Um, so it's just beenreally sad, um, to see, uh, the shift to digital in the marketing spacespecifically, where people often either completely forget about print, um,because everybody's so focused on digital, um, and online marketing, or theydon't believe that print is as effective as digital at advertising. And, um,you know, hopefully today we are gonna be able to set people straight and letthem know that that is not true. And print is very much alive and can be usedvery, very effectively for your marketing campaign. So, um, are you guys readyto dive in? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. All right. Let's do it. Let's crack thisopen.Oh, yeah. We got a bottle of wine here. Oh, nice.Yeah,They understood the assignment. I love it. Okay, everybodytake a, take a swig.It's a, it's a local,It's a local talk aboutSupporting local. Yeah.Oh, yes. You wanna share, you wanna share what you got?Uh,This one is SA toothOoh. Sawtooth. Is it a chardonnay?This is a Chardonnay. And they chardonnay, um, reds andwhites.Nice. Sawtooth. Okay. Don, what do you got?Cheers. Oh, I've got a black, I've got a Blackberry fig,Idaho Kombucha. Ooh. Fellow designer friend of ours started this company. Andso I thought, I love this. I'm gonna have thisVery nice. Very nice. I've got a raspberry sour, um, froma company, I will admit. I have no idea where they're from. So,<laugh>,Oregon. Oregon. Oregon.Oregon,Oregon. Okay. Um,That's an, that's an acquired taste, the sours, isn't it?I,I do like the fruit sours. I do. I, they've grown on me,so, you know, it's, it's a good summer drink, I would say. So. Nice.There you go. Well, it's good and hotHere. Cheers to that. Yes. Um, okay, well, let's, let'sdig in. Um, I, so I think what we should do first is really just tackle thismyth that print isn't effective. Right, right off the bat. Um, because you guysshared some really great, uh, insights with, with us on, you know, some, somecase studies of how print has proven to be effective in today's, you know,digitally focused world. You guys wanna share some of those examples or, ortalk about that a little bit more?Um, I think I would just first say that print is oneelement. It's one component that can be used in your marketing strategies. Um,and most savvy marketers know that they have to use several channels, whatevertheir audience is gonna use or be most receptive to. But print can educate, itcan, uh, compel and it can drive people to your website. And especially nowwith the use of QR codes and stuff like that, it's a very good tool tointegrate with your other marketing strategies.Yeah.And it's, and it's more effective when you do that.Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it's, it's a, don't put your eggsall in one basket type of approach to your marketing strategy. If you go all inon digital, you might be missing some really great opportunities offline, um,with your audience. So, um, I love that. That's really, really insightful. AndI think there's probably a qualitative and a quantitative way that we couldtalk about this. Like, there's definitely a qualitative that an immeasurableaspect to print that is very real. And that's just about, you know, humansbeing drawn to something they can touch and feel. Right. And, you know, can youguys elaborate on that a little bit? Like what is, what is it about print thatmakes it so captivating to people? Um,Well, it is, it is a feel and it, yeah. And when you'regiven a printed piece, you're going to look at it, whereas you may just scrollthrough things on your phone, but if you're given a printed piece, you're goingto look at it, you're going to feel it in your hands. You can incorporate thattactile experience to your design. And good designers, like Don will pickappropriate stocks that actually enhance the design mm-hmm. <affirmative>and make even more impact, um, that way. For instance, if, um, we did like anannual report, like Don mentioned. Yeah. Um, sometimes people really like tohave those in physical form mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and this designerused a stock that felt like corduroy. Oh. And then the print graphic design hadcorduroy in it. So when you touched the piece in your handsOh, love that. YouWere looking at corduroy and it felt like corduroy.That's so cool.Maybe if you har doing beautiful photography of elephantsand so you can get a textured stock that's going to feel like that, you know,animals hide or, um, yeah. So it, it actually makes what you're seeing morereal because of how it feels.Oh, I love that. Yeah. Just really bringing it to life.You're, you're, you're literally bringing it to life through print because it'sa, a tangible thing you can hold in your hands. Um,And if you use a really cool stock that feels differentthan just your regular paper, when you hand it to someone, they go, Ooh, youknow, what is that?Yeah. And they wanna feel it. TheyWanna know,Yeah. Put it on their desk for a little or keep it in abox. Like me, I have a whole box of like, prints that I've kept cuz I'm justobsessed. Um, no, I love that. And so then there's also this quantitative side,uh, to it as well. Um, you guys shared a couple really interesting, um, statshere. I love, I love the data that you guys brought in. 81% of people read orscan their mail, mail daily. So that's a huge amount. Like you said, if yousend it to someone and they, you put it in their hand, they're gonna look atit, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> versus just doom scrolling onFacebook. Um, which is really, really cool. Um, so you guys had a few ofclients that you've worked with. Do you guys wanna share just some of those asproof points to how print can really be, uh, an effective strategy?Sure. Um, one of my nonprofit clients is Idaho YouthRanch, who provides programs and services to help families and children, um,with, with healing our healing residential center and, you know, programs. Um,Yeah. Awesome.And they do quarterly newsletters that always have a replydevice in them. They do an impact report, they do appeal letters with variabledata. So they're personalized, they're very good at their analytics. So she'sreally been increasing their donors and the amount of each donation just becauseshe's doing so much good testing, analytics, trying new device, new replydevices. And, um, I do have some samples, but the, the main thing I think isjust really knowing her audience. And so the letter would come to you, but itwould also say, this is how much you donated last time, could you considerthis?Yeah.And so she's got some really good strategies in there.I love that. Well, you talk about her, she's doing sometesting. Can you sh you know, can you elaborate on that? Like what, what is shetesting? What, do you know what she has been experimenting with?Sure. She tests different messages. How many pages? Theletter would be her reply devices. Um, they've got the remittance envelopes,which I might be able to find one, but she also found that if she had a fullpage as this is a remittance envelope, right?Yep.Yep. So people don't have to go find a stamp and anenvelope. This just comes right back to 'em. They canPut their, can you hold information? Hold, can you kindahold it up in the middle just Yeah, thereYou go. There we go.Yeah, there you go. SoPeople can fill out the information, it comes back, itmakes it really easy for the donor.Yeah. AndShe's now tested an eight and a half by 11 sheet thatstill has the donor information on it, but for some reason that has pulledbetter for her. So Interesting. That's kinda what I mean by testing.Yeah. And she keeps track of all of the campaigns she'srun andYeah. They have a little code.What's, what's done better.They have a little code on their envelope so they knowwhich campaign it came from.Nice. AndShe found people saved these for a year evenReally?And then send their donation in.Mm. Smart. Smart. Well, kudos to your client at IdahoYouth Ranch. That is, that's fantastic. I love, I love that. That is so great.And so you kind of talked about the analytics then. So she uses those codes,um, to track and that's kind of, or or is there other analytics that she'smeasuring too that we didn't? Um,She's measuring the outgoing device. She's putting a lotof imagery on the outgoing device.Okay. So is that the, that's the envelope that goes out inthe mail.Yep.Oh, interesting. I didn't even know that you could printall of that. Um, so that's, that's news to me. I just learned something new.That's amazing. Wow. You don't ever really see that. I don't, I feel like I'venever even seen that in the mail. So that's really cool.It's great that we're talking about it because weencourage people to put something on the outside of the envelope to compelpeople to open it. It's only as good asIf it Yeah. If you can do it. Yeah. Oh gosh. Well,So that's one example. Liz has some good ones too. So, um,we have a local hospital and obviously medical, you know, businesses keep a lotof information about their patients. Yeah. Everything from their gender totheir age to what ailments they have. Mm. Um, plus with their address, you havetheir, where they're geographically located, um, and their gender, all kinds ofdifferent facts about them that they can utilize doing variable data printing.So what this hospital did, which is really smart, is they would tailor theiroutgoing mailer based on gender. So they would choose an image that wouldchange based on the gender throughout their mailing list. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> that would appeal to, you know, a ma uh mm-hmm.<affirmative> male or a female. Um, sometimes they would have an oldermale, younger male, older female, younger, um, older female. I just messed thatup.<laugh>. So they, so that what people are seeingthey relate to. Yeah. And that information is in their database, um Okay. Alongwith their age. So when they're wanting people to come in, like when you turn45 and you're supposed to get a certain number of health tests, you know Yeah.For your wellness, what they would do is you would get a mailer that would havean image that was tailored to you. It would have your name within the body ofthe text mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not just on the address block. Yep. Sothat it's, it's basically reading you written to you to the message. Yep. Andthey would incorporate, um, based on your age, like which tests you needed toget. Mm. So those would be listed there for you. And then they would, based onthe geography, tell you here's the nearest place to get that done and here'stheir number. Yeah. So they're saying, we know where you're at in life andthese are things that are important to you. Here's imagery and body text thatall is gonna appeal to where you're at and here's where to go get it's. Soyeah,That's really with aLittle map that says, here's your route of direction fromyour home.Wow. Yeah.Um, so that they get response by providing all of that inone mailer.That's super cool. And then theyRepeat it.Yeah. Super cool. I have two questions for that. Um, myfirst question is if, you know any of our listeners are hearing that andthinking, gosh, it'd be so cool for me to do something that personal for all ofmy customers, but maybe they're overwhelmed on, do I have to make, do I have tohave my designer make all of those versions? No. And it's, it's, uh, anautomated process, correct? Yes. And even even down to the images that youinclude, right? You just basically create a, uh, like a spreadsheet, right?Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then all of that is done automatically. So youjust send over the data and you can customize thousands of pieces of mail inYes. In minutes, essentially. Yeah. Correct. SoInstead of something really generic, it's very tailored.As long as the demographics are in your list, you can useThem. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Amazing.In one print run too. It's all in one print, run,Print, run change, theName would change.So it's way easier to do than most people probably thinkIt is. TheThe trick is having it in your database.Yeah, yeah. Cool.And collecting as much informationAs you can. Yeah. Right. And the second question I have onthat is, ha did, did they share, and maybe they didn't, um, you know, beingthat they're a, a hospital, but did they share any data with you on whetherthose campaigns were successful? Did they share any results from those? Um, um,They did not. Those personalized did not gimme numbers.Yeah. But, um, they felt like they were extremely effective.Yeah. Um,Especially this area has been growing a great deal. And sothey don't just have one location, they have many locations. Yeah. And itreally did allow for people to realize, oh, this clinic right around the cornerjust opened up, and I didn't even know it was thatClose. Can you even know? Yeah. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So have they done this? Have they done it and thenrepeated it and done it again and again and again? So whatThey would do is they would do a monthly trigger. So like,like in the example of turning 45. Yeah. So, and if anybody in their list thatturned 45 in the month of April would get this mailer. Oh, wow. All of theirpatients that turned 45 in May would get thisMailer. That's amazing. So thatThroughout the year, they're, they're doing the repeatingthe same, um, titledOutreach. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Oh, that's really cool. Um,well thank you guys for sharing those examples. That's awesome. And, um, I lovethat in both of those examples, we talked about two different ways into datawith print. One on the outcome, and then one on the outset of a print projectand how data is very much, um, a a huge piece of, um, of print. And thatactually is my next point, is that print can be data driven. Um, you know, whenpeople think about doing print for marketing, um, I think one of the questionsthat I've heard a lot as a creative director is like, well, how are we going tomeasure whether this direct mail was successful? Um, so do you guys have anystrategies that you use for helping people, um, set up metrics for their printand making sure that they're actually getting, you know, quantitative data thatthat can be tied back to roi?Yes, sure. Uh, people can use unique codes. QR codes areback in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm sure you've seen 'em on everything.Oh,Yeah. Um, and you can also use pearls, which nobodyreally, there are a couple different companies that actually provide thatservice, but a pearl is a personalized url, so it's unique to you if you clickon that. They know they, they can drill down to you as opposed to just knowinghow many hits they have. Wow. But even QR codes can drive people to yourwebsite. I do have this one sample we recently did, and they're doing it as atest, but this is all a product line. Mm. So instead of having a whole catalog,you can just Interesting. Click on the QR code and you can go to all of thisproduct specs.Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.Isn't that me?That's really cool. And they'll be able to measure howmany people scanned and which product they scanned and all of that stuffthrough the QR code analytics then.Right.Exactly. And Right.Depending on, you know, it's important to have a call toaction in your messaging mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So then when you do getthat response, then you know, oh, okay, this is how we ask them to respond. Andthen you can measure from there also.Yeah. Interesting.Or an offer, like a compelling offer. Sure. If it's onlythrough that, if it's only on that postcardUnique code, or, yeah. Yep. Yep, yep. So there's lots ofways I think that you can, um, embed tracking metrics into your print. It'sjust a matter of what, what's right for your campaign or your message. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, the pearls were interesting. I'm glad you mentioned that,because I don't think it's something that people really, um, I, I don't see itvery often and I guess, I don't know what the barrier to entry is there, ifit's cost prohibitive or, um, or what do you guys have, I mean, maybe that'snot your area, but, um,I think that that's part of it. Um, we would have, wewould go through a service if any of our customers would want to use pearls, wewould love that. Yeah. But I think it's still kind of cutting edge and, um, asLiz said, it's only as good as the data you have on your clients. Right?Yep.So whether you're gonna spend that extra money to get thatservice, but it, it's really a cool thing.It is. Super. Yeah. Super cool. I love that. Um, so youguys talked about, there's some statistics here that I just wanna share about,you know, print direct mail increases online donations by 40%. Um, and brandrecall is 70% higher from print than digital ads, which was, uh, prettyastounding. Um, if, if someone is thinking about incorporating print intotheir, into their marketing strategy, what's, what's your advice to them on howto, how to even begin to think about doing a print strategy? You know, likewhen do they use it? Why should they use it? How should they use it? What's,what are your guys', uh, thoughts on that?Uh, first you need to know what your goal is. Are youeducating? Are you just building brand awareness? Are you needing somebody topurchase a product or like a nonprofit, make a donation mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So if you know what the goal isYeah.You, you start there and then that will drive how you goabout what you're doing and, um, what method you're going to want. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, sometimes your, perhaps your target audience isolder, so they're not going to be necessarily using as much digital onlinesocial media for, you know, some of the things that they're looking for, youknow, likeYeah. Right.People, you know, used to use phone books. Nobody uses aphone book anymore, but people used to have to look things up and have thingsin front of them. Yeah. Um, and so if you're reaching an older demographic andyou send them something in the mail mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're goingto look at it, they're going to read it. Um, you should make sure the font isbig enough. Yeah. And it's not teeny tiny. Yeah. So it, it, it goes back tohaving your goal. Who's your audience, what are you asking them to do? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And then making whatever your type of outreach is, fitthat outcome to fit Right.That audience. Yeah. Yeah. What, is there any sort of usecase, you know, we talk a lot about how print can be a really good strategydepending on your goal, you know, and, and you talked about some of those goalsfor print being like bringing people to your website, asking for donations, youknow, an event invitation, for example, R S V SVP to a corporate event. Arethere any situations that you've run into where print might not have been agood for a specific goal? Do you guys know any examples of that? Just to playdevil's advocate?<laugh>, I would say, yeah. You know, um, if, ifsomeone is thinking that they're gonna come up with a very generic postcardthat just has their logo on it saying, yay, here we are, come by our widgets.That's not <laugh>. I'm just sending it to a generic, you know,geographic residence list. Yeah. That's, that's not gonna get you anywhere. Andthat's a huge waste of money.Yeah. SoIt only doing it one time. Yeah. Not being targeted, nothaving those essential elements in your piece is a complete waste of yourmoney. It would be better to spend a little bit more money and use a designerto do a good job, help you with your piece Yeah. And talk to your printer inadvance of coming up with whatever idea you think you're going to do. Yeah.Because they can both, both those, um, resources can help you go, all right,well this isn't gonna do what you think it's going to do. Yeah. You're, youknow, better off using your money toward these dollars.Right. Yeah. It sounds like print is, it's very, veryimportant for print to have a very specific call to action, um, versus sendingout just a mailer, like, hi, we're here.Yeah. People are like,Great. Not asking you to do anything isn't going to getyou anything. Um, yeah. Cause people aren't gonna know what to, okay. I don'tknow what to do. I don't know what you want me to do. Um, right.Or why or why I should do something,Or why I should. Yeah. That's, that's great. Um, so Ithink, um, Don, we've, we haven't, we haven't got tapped into your infinitewisdom yet, and I, and I want to know more from you, from the design side,we'll give Katie and Liz a a chance to drink more of their wine <laugh>.Um, but you know, when you are designing for direct mail, um, what are thethings that you're thinking about, you know, on the design, you know, we talkeda lot about on the strategy side, but on the execution side, you know, what canyou share with us about that?Yeah. Well, I'll even back up a little further then beforeI would start designing something. And I think that's basically contacting theexperts that you're going to need for, for the project. So in this case, we'retalking print, I would wanna talk to some really good printers Yeah. To see ifwhat, what the idea that was either conveyed to me byDon ahead gets an a plus for that answer. Right. Katie andLiz,Like I said, we like him aLot. Yeah. Sounds like you might get another bottle ofwine sent to your door for that answer.Thanks. Yeah. So, um, so, you know, um, like, you know,I'm learning things in this conversation from, from Liz and Katie about, youknow, um, they taught me about pearls and, and we almost did a project withpearls, but then we realized things weren't quite the right in the right place.We didn't have the quantities or something to that note. Yeah. Um, right. Butyet, you know, technology is there, you just really have to make sure you're,you're in that channel and it's gonna serve you the best. And I, so I thinkthat's the first thing is if I'm gonna print a direct mail piece, you know,there's, there's obviously quick ways of doing that and, and that may be theway to go. But if you're wanting it to perform, especially, and give youanalytics, I think you would wanna use a, a printer and, and not do the, thethe quickie thing, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then, um, secondly, whendesigning something, you know, Liz mentioned fonts and, you know, there's,there's color choices you're gonna be making. And for direct mail, there's alot of guidance provided for you that you have to follow by the post office. Soyou need to, to know what that is and where those do not print areas are onyour envelopes and postcards, and then you know how you're gonna size it.So, yeah. Are, are you, uh, um, sorry. Are you, Liz andKatie, good resources for designers on those mailing specifications? Or where,where should designers go, I guess, to figure all that out? Cuz I mean, I'll behonest with you guys. I've tried to go look up, you know, postagespecifications from a national postal service that shall remain nameless. Um,and it was to barrierYour insomnia, right? Yes. Your insomnia.Yes, a hundred percent. I was like, I can, someone justtell me what to do here. I cannot make heads or tails of this. So where, whereshould they go <laugh> and not to the, their website? <laugh>.Yeah. Any, um, printer or mail house will kind of help youshortcut a lot of that minutia. Okay. Um, and it is important early on in thedesign process, because when you're doing a mailing, the one of the largestcosts is actually your postage, which is going up all of the time. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So once it's out and you've paid for that postage, youknow, you're, it's, it's gone. That's cash gone. Yeah. Right. Um, and if youdon't design it correctly, you will have spent all this money on postage andthen you're gonna get charged even more. Even be, whether it because it's notmeeting their requirements or if it's not well designed to go through theirmachinery, it'll get destroyed. And so,Oh no.That's a total waste of, of your funds. If somebodyreceives something and it's like accordioned from going through the processingmachinery poorly.Yeah.So it's, it's a good idea to contact anytime you're gonnado a mailing project to reach out to a commercial print shop, um, hopefully onelike us that has, um, in-house mailing services, cuz we have those experts thengo say, oh, well you need to move your address block this farOver.Yeah. You know, it has to be this large Yeah. You need tohave your indie show when, or you do or don't have to have a return address.Those kinds ofThings. Yeah. So if you're just a de a designer out thereand you're like trying to do this on your own, trying to do it, you know, with,with some online printMm-hmm.<affirmative> robot and you're not working withsomeone who knows these specifications and you spend all this money, or yourclient spends all this money, you spend all this time, you mail it out, youdidn't do it. Right. I don't suppose you get a courtesy call from the US PostalService saying like, oh, hi. So your mailing wasn't set up correctly. Like youjust wouldn't know. Right. Correct. It just wouldn't, it just wouldn't end up,it wouldJust be off. Just,It'd just be gone into the it's gone into the ether. Okay.Yeah. That's a good, good thing to note. Okay. Don, I'm sorry I didn't, I justhad, I wanted to ask worries about, I was just like, those mailing, oh my God.Like can I just, I need to take a drink even just thinking aboutThat <laugh>.Well, well, while you're doing that too, I I also bring upthe resurgence of door hangers, uh, for residential contact. I, I'm seeing alot more of that. And I, I, especially from, um, internet, uh, companies,that's their number one way of reaching out to somebody to get higher speed,uh, is door hangers and I, and they're finding that those are more effectivethan email campaigns, even postcardsAnd really,Yeah. I, you know, I won't say the company, but, uh, yeah.I was talking to, to somebody in that marketing team and that's what they use.So don't rule that out either. And that's pretty simple, straightforward, nopostage required, but you just need a person to drive around and put 'em allup.Yeah, for sure. Door hangers were like all the rage, likewhat, 10, 10, 15 years ago? MaybeEven sooner. Long ago. Grass cuttingLonger than that.But, um, yeah, I mean, I like, I was like, I was likedesigning door hangers left and right back in their hayday and I, I don't thinkI've designed a door hanger in a decade. Um, so that's really, I thisPrinted one you printed one last Yeah. Couple weeks ago orSomething. Interesting. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Cause Imean, back then they, we didn't have QR codes, so now if you can add thetracking element to a door hanger, it could be a real match made in heaventhere. So,And it's still print. I, I think I likeTo say, and it's still print,Print has staying power.Yes, yes. For sure. For sure. Um, one thing that I thinkwould be worth digging into Don is the color, the color issue with print. Ithink sometimes people have a really hard time wrapping their minds arounddesigners needing to format things very specifically for print color versusscreen color. And I'm using layman's terms here, but, um, right. Do you wannakinda explain that in, in, in a way that won't make people fall asleep<laugh>? Right. Well there's, there's, um, there'sall kinds of debates about what's, what is the best way to release a file to aprinter. You know, it used to be your file should be converted to four colorprocess so that it can match their four color process systems, but mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, you consult Adobe about that and they'll say,don't change it. Go with RG B, which is red, green, blue format. All the colorsare made with just those three. And then there's spot color, which is, you know,relying on PMs chips, which would, which would really pinpoint, you know, acertain company's blue or a certain company's red to be exactly matched. Andthen, then, then that's all the way through to the end product. And when it'sprinted, that red should match the red PMs chip. Um, as a designer, I thinkwhat you wanna do again, is talk to the printer, find out what their preferenceis, um mm-hmm.<affirmative>, there, there's different, um,requests that I've gotten. But, uh, for the most part I try, I usually convertfor color process. Um, and again, this isn't gonna always look the same oneverybody's monitors either. So if, if you're going through editing with, youknow, uh, a content team and you're sending them files that have a certaincolor build and they're saying the colors are wrong, that's kind of hard toevaluate. Cuz you don't know what kind of monitor they're monitor they'relooking at your work on. Yeah. Yeah. So until you get on paper, you're notreally looking at apples, um, to apples. Yeah. So, yeah, for for sure, maybe,maybe Katie or Liz can comment on what they prefer, but I, I always expect theconversation about how do you want your colors built.Yeah. Do you guys often recommend getting a printed sampleon your, your proof, your proofs? Or do you do a lot of digital proof? Likeshould Yeah. What's, what's the way that you want people to be proofing theirprint projects, I guess is the question I haveFor on our end. It depends on whether the job is gonna beprinted on a digital press or whether it's gonna be printed on the 40 inch fivecolor with a coding mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if it's a digital pressjob, then it's on exactly the substrate that you ordered and what you see iswhat you're gonna get. Yeah. And that's kind of the beauty of digital, but it'sfor short run color. So if you have a really nice high-end project, and maybeit's four color process, plus a spot color, which is an a separate ink. Yeah.Yep. Um, that's gonna be proofed with a high resolution Epson. And then we dokind of a low resolution folded proof, like say it's a multi-page documentmm-hmm. <affirmative>, we would do a folded proof so you could make sureall the pages are in order and it's trimmed, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But then we do a high resolution proof, which is good foryou to color, color check mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also it's the toolthat our press operators run to. So we run the press to that color that you'veapproved.Mm, cool. Yeah.Right. And I'll, I'll chime in here too, because Katie andI did a, a pretty large run project. We did a poster, I don't know if youremember that, Katie. And it required a, there you go, uh, <laugh> and itrequired a match color and it had folding and it had three components to itthat all fit in an envelope. So, you know, that required an in-person foldedsample that I needed to approve. And then of course I had to share that withcoworkers in other states. So they wanted to see it and, um, and then all of a,and then go to a press check to make sure this all kind of translated from theproof to the actualHigher there, Katie?Well, I was waiting for to Oh,Put it up.Oh yeah. Very nice. YouKnow, so this is a poster that, um, toOur phone.Yep, yep, yep.And this was meant to hang in a break room in a firestation andOh, sure.Hopefully people would scan it with their phones and goand do something that this was telling you to do. So, um, it was reallysuccessful.Nice. That's really nice. EverythingWas trapped <laugh> and I look at anEnvelope. There you go with the big envelope again.Oh yeah. Look at that. That's really niceBranding structure to that.That's really nice. Really nice. Yeah. Kudos guys. That'sawesome.So you guys on the RGB thing, um, we can't print rgb,that's something that you just see on the monitor, so Yep. It's not somethingthat we use and their colors do ship when you transfer from R G B to CM ykmm-hmm. <affirmative>. And a lot of, um, average people don't understandwhy that happens.Yeah. Yeah. So for those listening who are like, I have noidea what the heck they're talking about, uh, on your monitor, the, the lightsthat make up the images that you see in your monitor are red, green, and bluelights are gb. And so everything that you see on your screen is a combinationof those three colors. And in print, the ink that we use is cyan, magenta,yellow, and black. And so every color that you see printed is a combination ofthose four inks. And so it's just very different RGB to C M Y K. It's just adifferent mix of ingredients, so to speak, to make the colors that you want tosee. And when you're looking at something on the screen, um, made up of the R RG B color ingredients, um, it's going to look different if you just convertthat right to C M Y K without taking into account, you know, I, there's like aconversion rate, you know, if you talk about ingredients, um, there's like aconversion rate that you have to apply to make sure that that gets adjustedcorrectly.And then Pantone colors, um, if you hear that term is awhole nother, uh, set of colors. They're Pantone chips and they're, um, veryspecific. It's, it's almost like you have to select a Pantone chip, um, to bethe color that you want. Versus with C M Y K, you can kind of like add a littlecyan and add a little magenta to kind of tweak the color just to be the waythat you want it. But the Pantone colors, there's a book of them and they'reall very set specific colors that have, um, like a recipe of how the printerwould make that ink. So, um, those are just kind of the different nuances ofthose, um, print colors, which is all I'll say about that because it's just,it's just a lot <laugh>. Um, Don, do you have, um, do you have it, it, Iguess the question is for all of you, are there any really fun print projectsthat you've done recently? Whether they're fun folds or just unique interactiveprint examples that you guys would wanna share and, and, and show me<laugh>, I wanna see themThe first dawn.Well, I don't have any examples in front of me, but, um, Ifollow, um, a really great website and, um, email, uh, marketing, well,somebody sends out creative folds and they track, you know, I think I know theyget, uh,Yeah.And uh, what is her name? What?Trish? Trish. Trish.Trish. It's fold of the Week.Fold of the week. Yeah. So I getThat week.Yeah. And she'll send you templates for that work. You canlook at her samples. They're in videos, she interacts with them. So that posteryou saw the way it opened up was from Trisha's folder of the week, a particularcertain way that that tumbles out. And it's all to basically fit that in anenvelope so you can email, uh, mail it regularly. Yeah, nice. Yeah. Efficientlyand load it into the envelope, um, with a machine, not a person's hands. So,um, but I like folding. I think that is just its own art right there. Um, andanything that folds and reveals systematically for me mm-hmm. Is like thefunnest. And, and also, like you said, Sarah, you're, you're into letterpress.That paper that's used for letterpress is really beautiful and tactile. And,and so, uh, I'm always drawn to paper and anytime I can get away from the housesheet, I'm really excited. Um, and the house sheet is usually what the printerswill, will have on hand, no ordering required. Yeah. But, uh, those are myfavorite, um, parts of the print world right there is the folding the paper.And then, um, in terms of examples, that poster was what was the one I wasgoing to reveal as, um, a recent project that was really great.Yeah. Folding is so fun and it's, it is like, I guess, Idon't know if it's just to me because I love print and I'm a designer, but itfeels like getting a gift. Like I'm getting a present in the mail, even if it'san advertisement, I'm like, oh, I wanna see how this opens and I wanna playwith it.And then it's interactive.Interactive, exactly. And it's just way more fun. And if,if you can create a piece like that, um, I mean if it just brings, you know,it's that surprise and delight factor to your audience, you know, that's justgonna be all the more impactful and successful, um, to see results too. So, um,and your designer will be probably giddy if you come to them and ask them to dosome sort of a fun interactive mailing. They're like, oh gosh, I was soexcited, Trish, I need help.Yeah. And, and one more thing Sarah too. I just, it justoccurred to me was, you know, as a designer I always wanna bring things intothis world of print if at all possible. Um, and you know, it's often told bythe maybe the team I'm working with that's cost prohibitive. Like, we can'tafford to print, we're just gonna do this in another way. And I would encouragea designer who might be interested in, in that solving that is first talk toyour printer before you rule it out. Cuz there might be finagling that, thatKatie and Liz or people like them could do. Right. Yeah. To make it affordableand not necessarily, you know, break the bank.Yeah. Well there's definitely that, I'm glad you mentionedthat done because there's definitely, and I'm probably exaggerating this, butit's like if they, if the designer only knew that like trimming off an eighthof an inch from the design would save them hundreds of thousands of dollars orsomething in trim and bindery and, and uh, cost that eighth of an inch, you know,it's like it's, it could be just the smallest tweak that's gonna end up makingit 10 x more efficient. So, um Right. You know, that's, it's really, I'm gladyou mentioned that Don, cuz that's super important too. It's not like you canjust, you know, there are standards in print that if you abide by them and playin their sandbox, it's gonna be a lot more cost friendly for you. So,And I might mention too, that if you don't wanna do print,but you reach 85,000 people with an email, but you don't get any return on thatinvestment and you've paid for search engine optimization and all that kind ofstuff that didn't do you any good. It's so easy to get rid of emails and stuff,but so you spend a little more money on print, but then you get a return on yourinvestment. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, uh, I think that's where measuring comesin. But yeah, that's where it's kind of important to really decide what kind ofa return do you want and are you really reaching your target audience.Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, exactly. Well, and onething I'd say to the, the naysayers out there, if you're still listening withus and you're like, I am still on the fence about print, is, you know,marketing is all about testing and testing out channels and you test out digitalchannels, you test out different, um, you know, you test out email, you testout different social media networks, you test out different messages, you testout different ad formats. Print is an ad format and if you are avoiding it justbecause you think it's not cost effective or not effective, you are basicallylike saying like, well we're not gonna test on Facebook just because we don'tthink Facebook works. Like you can't make assumptions like that in, inmarketing. You need to test everything, especially if there is, uh, you know,insights to back up the fact that it might resonate better with your audience,print might do that.So, um, try it out. You know, it's like, it's all, all youcould do is just try one out and see where it lands or do a small run, do asample test and just see how it goes. And you might be pleasantly surprised andthink, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that I tuned in to listen to Liz and Katie tellme that print is alive, <laugh>. Um, cause that's where we're, um, sojust to, we're we're getting to be about at time. So what, what do you guysthink, um, you would want to share with your customers if, if they had, youknow, let's say three things that you wanted them to take away from this or youwish that they knew, what would those three things be?Okay. Well, from my perspective, I would say yes, you doneed a designer. I think a designer can make a big difference and the DIYculture we live in and um, you know, and you know, your desire's gonna workwith you too. If, if you're thinking this is gonna cost me too much money, but,um, it's gonna, it's gonna serve you in the end, uh, in, in a much better way,uh, that files will be built correctly. So I think that's the number one on mylist is, is to persuade you that you do, you do need a designer and, um, uh, Idon't have a, I don't have a second and a third<laugh>, you need me. Yeah. And that's all Don out<laugh>. AndFor now, and you and I would second that because, youknow, as printers we see a lot of design and we can tell if it's a designerOhYeah. Or a designer. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know,when is it ever a wasted print project if the design is poor, that's probably awasted print project.Yeah. Because it does make a difference. YouCan, you can absolutely tell the difference between a homemovie and a movie you see in the cinema. There is a massive difference betweenthe two. And in design there's a wide scope of talent and skill. And when yousee good design, it's you, you recognize it and you recognize it as effective mm-hmm.<affirmative> and it, it does what it's supposed to do. It delivers amessage. Yeah. And if it's not good design, it's not gonnaHappen. Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll add one, one little thingbecause I am a, I come from a designer background. I am a designer myself. Andso I feel like compelled to share that we are trained in not just making thingslook good, not just making things look pretty, but we are trained in how todeliver a message visually so that your audience can understand and digest thatinformation. And I think it's that subtle, almost psychological component todesign that sets a non-designer and a designer apart. It's, it's their abilityto translate an idea, a message, a concept to you visually, so that your braincan understand it in a second. Um, and that's, that's what, that's what thedifference is. So when people are like, well, can you just make this look good?Right. I just wanna like slap them in the face. I'm like, that's not what I do.<laugh>. Uh, that's a byproduct of what I do. It does look good, but thecore objective is that it needs to communicate and that's, that's the, thepiece of it thatOkay. MightAlso, I'm off my soapbox now,<laugh>, but we agree. Yes.Yeah. Yes.I I might also add that before you spend a bunch of timedesigning something or be before a customer decides to go to a designer and aprinter, we even have a PDF that we send to people if they're thinking aboutdoing a direct mail programOh, great. SoThat it helps 'em, you know, develop their goals. What's yourcompelling offer? What are these, we have all these different aspects thatactually help your return on the investment. You know, a call to action, asense of urgency, the QR code or the aspect of measurement. We, we really thinkif we make that person think that through Yeah. Then that gives the designermore information, involve us early because then we can help direct it the mosteconomical way. So I think involving those experts early is really important sothat you get the feedback and you get the, the challenging questions Yes. Thatwe need to, so that we can meet their needs properly.I love that. So you say you have a pdf, huh?<laugh>, uh, would you be willing to share, and I can put that with our,with this episode. So if, if you're listening and you're like, gosh, I'd liketo get my hands on that pdf, we can, we can get that out of course to people.Okay, great. Of course. Well, we'll put that in the, um, episode link with thisepisode when it is live. So if you are interested, um, go ahead and take a lookat that. But that would be, that would be awesome. Um, so to close out, uh, ourepisode, I want to, um, first have you guys answer the question that we gotfrom our user online. I'm just trying to find where I put that in my paperworkhere. Um, so we have a question from, uh, Muriel P in Alameda, California, andshe asks, uh, what is the difference between a commercial printer versus, uh,Kinkos or FedEx or Avis Print, and how do I know where I should go? So that's agood, thatAnswer,That's a hot potato, launching it over. So ifYou need just a handful of, you know, copies that have,you know, your little event coming up, um, and you have an open house and youjust need 250, little five and a half by eight and a half cards that you'regonna hand out to whoever you run into for the next week, we're not for you.Mm. We aren't, we aren't gonna be worth the investment for that type of aproject for that. Okay. You know, um, do what you call nephew art where youhave a friend that we'll throw something together for you and then you take itto Kinko's and it's gonna, you know, meet that, that kind of a need. But onceyou're talking about having something that needs to have more of a, a corporateidentity continuity for your, for your branding and your messagingYeah. AndFor your color consistency, if you're talking aboutneeding like maybe your university and you have packets that are gonna go outto all the graduating students within the Northwest and you're gonna print5,000 of these that talk all about the school and you need the pictures to bebeautiful. Yeah. And it needs to be polished and finished. That's the kind ofwork we do. So when Okay. When you are interacting with somebody's corporateidentity materials, those are probably something that's been produced by acommercial printer. Sure. Or if you see something that's on beautiful paper,that's something that's done on with a with a commercial printer. Okay. Um, orif you're talking about doing more sophisticated variable data like imagery, usingyour dataYeah. Like that hospital mailing, doing directMail, that's when that's when you talk to somebody likeThis. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so is it a, is it a quantitythreshold or a quality threshold? Or maybe it's both?I would say it'sBoth. It's both. Okay. So it's like, yeah, it's, it'sprobably, there's a, a range there as you tip the scales, right? Yeah. Thatwould, yeah.So like we've got, we've got digital printers mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and then we have the offset presses, and so we can run 50of something. So we do have customers that want, like the, for instance, their,their corporate colors really critical to them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Sothey want, even if it's a small digital run, we'll still produce that for them.But we know how to match it to all of their larger projects so that it, it alllooks like it goes together. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but we can do shortrun. We do have that ability. Um, but we do larger run too.Yeah.Usually if it's a super small amount, it's not, it's notgonna fit.Yeah. What about the, there's Don do you have somethingyou wanna add to that?Yeah, I was gonna say that this is usually a conversationthat Katie and Liz and I might have about a project where I'll say, Hey, I gottwo, I need 250 postcards. And we'll evaluate based on that quantity of whichis the most economical way, digital or offset. And, and there's alwaysquestions about what we want that to be too is like, is there color matchinginvolved, like Liz was saying, or is there, um, a qu a higher quality likepaper that this has to be on that won't go through a digital printer that allguides, whether it goes digital or commercial. And, and of course we're alreadytalking about working with a printer now versus throwing something, um, uh, outto, you know, the local, um, quickie shop.Yeah. Yeah.I was also just gonna mention that I think our idealcustomer is someone who, who buys printing on an ongoing basis. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So our partnership with them benefits them because now wehave a familiarity. We don't have to ask them 12 questions because we alreadyknow these things that are important to them. Yeah. Whether it's a short run,but it's still gonna match all their other collateral, so. Got it. I think thatongoing partnership isImportant. Yeah. You, you know, you learn their business,you learn their brand, you know what to look for. You're like, Hey, this, thisprinted out really funky. It doesn't look like your normal colors, what's goingon? And you can kind of raise those flags and be a, a, a second eye for theircreative director. Um, which, which, yeah.And when you have turnover at the company, sometimes weend up training the new personOh, yeah. Yeah.How things have been done for their company for a longtime. So Yeah. You know, so and so retiresYou listen here, but we,We know more about <laugh>, we won't know more aboutthat company's products, you know, and and their corporate image. Yeah.Sometimes then the new person that works there. Yeah. So we can go, well, historicallythis is how you've done it. Yeah. This is why you've done it it that way.Just checking. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's awesome.That's really cool. Um, so I had one other question just to, just to piggybackoff of Muriel's question about where to go. You know, there's all of, I feel, Ifeel like over the last five years there have been more and more online printoptions out coming, you know, they're just, they're popping up kind of all overthe place. Um, I'm always a little bit cautious of them because their pricesare often really cheap, but it's like, why is it so cheap? And you never get totalk to anybody. It's like a chat feature, right? Like, and you hope thatyou're sending off these files and then what ends up at your door is like theright thing. Um, and it's often not <laugh>. I've had terribleexperiences where it's like they're all stuck together and I had like UV codingand they were like, they came and it was like a brick of <laugh>postcards. I'm like, this is a what? It's like a paper weight. Like, I don'tknow what to do with this. Um, so what, what do you, what are your guys, whatwould you share as I guess, potential watch outs for anyone who is looking todo something and print something online?Well, I would say if you just want pleasing color. Yeah.Because a lot of times the reason it's so cheap is they're printing yourbusiness card with 40 other business cards up on a big sheet.Yeah.So they're just gonna do pleasing color. They're not gonnafocus on your color. And then what you send them is what you get. If there's atypo in your art, I'm not gonna read it. I catch a lot of typos for mycustomers. Yeah. So you're just gonna get what you sent them. Yeah. And thatwould probably be a caution is do your own proofing really well and don'texpect anything but just pleasing color.Right. And super simple. Right? Like, I would never, Icouldn't even imagine trying to send an online printer, like a custom foldeddie cut anything. I mean, I think that would just be a complete nightmare.Right? Like, it's just like a business card, a postcard maybe, but super simit's like, it's like you said that quantity quality threshold, right? Like andtheyDo, they don't usually send a proof unless you wanna payX. No,No. Whereas weProof everything.Well, they send me back the PDF I sent them, I'm like,yeah, cool. I sent you the file so I know what the file looks like. Thank you<laugh>. Well, andWith how everyone's always on their monitors when they'relooking at their design and they very rarely even print it out for themselves.Mm-hmm. <affirmative> often when we give them a physical proof is whenthey find errors and 10 people have looked at this Oh yeah. But they don't seeit until they actually have it in front of them in a physical form. Yeah. Andthen, and then things pop up like, oh, I don't have the right number of pages.Yeah. Oh, yep, yep.Because, butWhat those types of thingsMm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. Um, when, when you getthat actual physical proof is often when people catch things and when youprint, just send something off onto, you know, the, the web, you, you're notgonna have that extra check for yourself. Yeah. And then that would be wasted,wasted print money.Yeah. I think a good rule of thumb, maybe with the onlineis just grouping them in the same bucket as like FedEx and Kinko's. It's like,if you wouldn't print something at FedEx, if you wouldn't print this at FedExand Kinko's, don't go find an online printer to print it there either. Like,it's that, it's that quantity quality issue. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Okay. WellI'm glad we put that to bed. Um, <laugh>. So <laugh>, well, I, isthere anything that you guys didn't feel like you didn't get to share that youstill want to share about printing or, or Don, about design?Did you wanna see cool sample?Oh yeah. Let's see the sample. Yes. Oh my gosh. You've gotSome cool ones. I do haveA couple. Yes.I don't know how well this will show up, but it's amulti-level.Oh, embo. The bo embossing. Yeah.It's a sculpted dye and then that's a, a foil stamp.Oh, cool.Oh, that'sReally nice. And thenThis is a, a metallic paper.Nice.This is a commencement program for our local medicalcollege.Okay. Very nice.Yeah. But, and then this is that wild paper. Have youever, it's likeWild paper uhuh. It'sWild. It's kind of almost feels like cotton. Yeah. Andit's got a texture to it. Ooh. It's something you could let her press.OhYeah. And this is the, this is the companion piece for themilitary graduates.Oh, that's so it so cool. Oh, I love that. It's just hardTo see cause of the star thing. They're allmultidimensional.Yeah. Yeah. I can tell. AndThen this one also had a metallic with white foil.Oh, yep. I can see the foil. I see the shine there.Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.Yeah. So anyway, those were kind of cool. And these arespecial order papers of course,But Yes. Right.Um, but those are kind of fun.Those are so cool. So cool. Oh my gosh, I love that. Itjust makes meWanna, oh, this wants me to show you this one. I like thisone. So this is a brown, this is a brown matte foil.Okay. AndThere's a metallic ink printed on this as well as anothercolor di that was with the star.Yeah. Oh. And then thisKinda neat, beautiful. This is sheet.Oh, that's so awesome. Oh my gosh. And I love that retroartwork.Yeah.That is so fun. So fun. There's so much you can do withdesign in print. It's,There's one more. So this one's cool. It has magnetsembedded in it, so it like clicks it clicks shut. SoWhen weHelped design this one for, um, a competition and we hadto, when it's all unfolded out flat, what I didn't realize when I first agreedto help them with this was that magnetic polarity between these little discmagnets. They have a positive side and a negative side. So when all thedifferent folds happen, they have to marry up to the right side.Oh. Otherwise they repel.Exactly. <laugh>. So together you had to like, haveall the iterations of the different folds so that it would do what it'ssupposed to do.And I love it.So that was a fun one. It was a little hair raising, butit turned out really,Really a puzzle. Yeah. Like a puzzle. Beautiful. That'swhy you need a printer to help you with those things. Cause <laugh>Yeah,I could, I don't think I would've able to figure that out.That's, that's prettyWell we've done a lot of beautiful things that Don hasdesigned too.Aw. Oh,Thank youDon's really great. Well, um, before we wrap, why don'tyou tell Don, why don't you go first? Can you tell people how to find you ifthey want to, if they're interested in having you do some beautiful designwork?Oh, sure. Um, you can go to my website, which is dongura.com. D o n G U R a. And that's probably the best way to get familiar withme and there's ways of calling me and emailing me through that.Okay, awesome. And we'll put a link to Don's website, um,with this episode and alongside that print, uh, PDF guide that Katie mentioned.So you can find all those goodies there. And Katie and Liz, how can we find youguys?Our website's fine. And it will be on the pdf.It'll be on on the pdf. Okay, great. It's tv,It's tv litho.com.Val litho do com, treasure Valley litho. Okay. Yeah.Awesome. Well, I so appreciate you guys spending the time with me today.And thisWas fun sharing a, a drink with me today. It's been sogood to talk about print and, um, I learned, you know, a few things. I, I, I'm,I love that it's like you can learn something new every day, so I appreciateyou guys sharing your knowledge and um, I hope that I get a really awesome, funprint project after this cuz I am just Jones in to do some fun, uh, customprint work again. So thank you so much guys. And thanks Sarah. Thanks everyonefor tuning in, Sarah,Take care. Thanks Sarah.Thanks Katie. Liz,Bye.